Cheers Rich
This post was too long to proof read, please disregard any instances of poor spelling and/or grammar
richo said:
I see what you're driving at. I still take precautions (The closest I'll come to squidding is draggins instead of leathers).
I have a bad history with protective gear, which will no doubt continue. My take is that a crash is pretty much going to hurt no matter what, so I like to put my eggs in the "don't crash and you won't need gear" basket
With that said, if I'm not geared up, I take extra precautions.
There's a little internal hypocrisy going on, yes, but I'm not on the "WEAR GEAR YOU IDIOT" bandwagon so at least I don't push that hypocrisy on others
I really love a shorts and singlet cruise on a hot day, for me it's worth the risk to skin.
My logic on this is probablydefinately a bit skewed, in that I find a modern sportsbike just way too boring for the road because you can't ride the thing even vaguely close to what it's capable of unless you want to go to jail.
While this is true, the reason I started doing track days is that I realised how dumb I was being on the road and that it was only a matter of time until I completely fucked myself up. Actually, it was less about realising this (knew it all along) and more deciding that I wasn't prepared to jump headfirst into that outcome anymore.
I suppose in a technically inferior bike I see the opportunity to have some more fun on it because you can be going much slower and still somewhere near (if not on the limits of the bike). This is something that is in retrospect fairly obvious in my replies and thought processes, but isn't something I'd really given much thought in the context of the discussion.
Makes sense. Where I'm at right now is maximising safety on the road and saving my fun for the track. Crashing anywhere still hurts, and the track isn't made of feathers and foam, but we all recognise that if going too fast is in the blood, it's in the blood.
Trying to look at this objectively, perhaps I'm expecting a higher standard of personal responsibility from the average road user (who to be fair seem to have an IQ around room temperate) than is realistic.
Perhaps. Other road users are my primary concern, if not for them, I wouldn't find riding like a cock such a dangerous activity.
Don't edit out the "like a"
And if you were on a superbike with brembo calipers and beringer rotors, you would have pulled up in time. Or you would have panicced and flipped yourself over the bars and faceplanted the car.
Possibly, who knows.
And in saying that, Mick Doohan could probably have pulled up a harley with poor brakes in time (or avoided the incident with steering) -> and no I don't know all the specifics. It may have been physically impossible to avoid the accident on a harley, that's immaterial to what I'm driving at.
I get your point, and I'm definitely no Doohan. I've thought about whether steering input would have possibly been able to avoid the collision entirely a number of times, but I think I chose the right option because me and the bike ended up unscathed (save for a small chip on the paint) and the dude's car ended up with an impression of my knee in his rear 1/4. Win-win
I'm not saying you should deliberatley ride a crap bike, the point I was trying to get across is that you're better of practicing and being good at riding whatever you're on, rather than assuming that because you've got shithot brakes and suspension you just have to pull the lever and you'll be fine.
Can't argue with that.
Perhaps more that a good rider wouldn't blame the bike afterwards, even if a better bike could have saved the incident.
I think taking personal responsibility for accidents that you had a HOPE of avoiding/saving is a potentially life saving attitude, so I can't fault the thinking behind it, however, you must recognise that not all accidents are saveable. There is a grey area in the middle where an accident would be saveable (within your skill level of course, not inherently) if the bike was better, and if I found myself in that grey area, I'd want to be on the better bike
The point that I was originally trying to make though is, that you don't buy a harley unless you really like the styling. As someone who doesn't like it, it's obviously a very easy choice for you to choose the safer bike. If they were just as safe you'd probably still take the sportsbike I'm guessing.
I would, I prefer the sportsbike styling, but I wouldn't rag on Harleys if they were well engineered.
For a person who's into it in a big way, assuming that safety is a concern, they'll weigh up the compromise between styling that they like and potential safety concerns and make their own decision on their own standards, in just the same way that people who are very competent riders choose to run harder commuting tyres that offer less grip than the softer sports tyres to save a little coin. There's more grey area than I think you gave the issue credit for.
Fair call. It's all risk:reward at the end of the day, and if I was a mad fucking Harley nut (just like if I was a mad fucking throw myself off cliffs nut) I'm sure I'd say the risk is worth the reward.
I'm just saying that you choose to ride a bike over driving a car in spite of the fact that it's more dangerous for a multitude of reasons, whether it be cost, speed, time saving or simply because you like riding bikes. It's that same sliding scale, just slid a little further.
I'm not really sure it follows. I choose to ride a single tracked vehicle, yes, but I think I have taken a good number of precautions to avoid crashing it, primarily choosing a bike that offered good handling and performance characteristics. The decision at the time was about performance, but my continual use of good tyres even though the bike is now primarily a commuter is all safety.
There aren't many people who I'll honestly believe if they try to argue that their experiences are any different either.
I was absolutely not doing anything stupid during my first crash. I was doing less than 40kph in a 60 zone because it was wet and coasting (neutral throttle) past a line of cars pulled up in a turning lane waiting for a light, then bang, dude a few metres in front of me pulls out. Even hampered by the cold max's, I think I would have been able to steer around it now that I'm less of a noob, maybe, but I was totally behaving myself (taking it very gentle actually) at the time. He paid for the damages for failing to give way.
I'm not glad I had any of my stacks, but I make a point of not making the same mistake twice. There's an old adage about the difference between a rider with 10 years experience, or 2 years experience 5 times over. I'm making the choice not to be the latter.
I've learnt from mine too. I don't think I had to actually smash to learn the lesson, I've learned plenty from scares too.
I don't want to crash- but if either one of us was 100% dedicated to never crashing again we'd sell our bikes and solve the problem once and for all. Again, it's a sliding scale of acceptable risk, and there's no right answer.
Agreed. For me, a Harley is outside of what I call acceptable risk. At the end of the day it's about odds, nothing is inevitable, and I'd take one for a blat, shit, I'd even take the rat bike for a blat, but the longer you spend on something that won't stop and won't steer, the greater your chances of finding yourself in a situation where you absolutely need to. Massively unlikely that anything will happen during a short blat where the rider shows self control, but unacceptable for me in the long term.
Well I want to clear this up very simply. No, riding it was a retarded idea. I'm probably lucky to have gotten away with it. All I'm saying is that while I was relying on luck to an extent, I made choices that minimised that risk, which clearly had some effect on the outcome.
A bad rider, or bad situational choices, are much more dangerous than a bad bike, granted. I'm not concerned about bad riding or bad choices, I only have myself to blame for those, and I tend to do both ok on the road these days, my accidents were all in the first yearish of having a bike.
I'm just saying that if you want one enough to buy it, you can compensate for the disadvantages in safety by making good decisions.
We've accepted however that not everything is in our control, and you can't compensate enough to get back to level pegging with a sports bike (ridden responsibly).
Would you drive a 74 valiant? It certainly doesn't turn or brake as well as a modern car, but there's nowhere near the same level of stigma around classic cars as there is long motorcycles.
I would, because it's got a nice sturdy cage around it, which I think completely changes the state of play. I wouldn't own a bike that was the equivalent of a 74 valiant though. I'd putt one around to see how bad it is, but I wouldn't throw myself into heavy traffic on one, and if it started raining, I'd pull the fuck over!
If someone can show you that the water is of a safe depth and there's nothing pointy at the bottom,and 3 of your mates make the jump without being injured would you do it?
I wouldn't be so worried about my mates surviving it, honestly I'd make my own mind up. A couple of my mates jumped off a bridge into the Yarra many moons ago, they were fine, but I didn't follow, I thought getting a mouthful of Yarra water was fucking stupid even if the drop didn't hurt
Although, in saying that, do you really think the dickhead:bike ratio is that much higher on sportsbikes as compared to harleys?
I do, honestly. There's only one Harley rider I've ever seen being a twat, he had some fucking super modified thing that was pulling wheelies on each gear change up to 60kph. We dragged on Royal Pde
The number of sports bike riders I've seen taking absolutely stupid risks however I wouldn't even try to count. Recently I saw a 600RR absolutely fanging it (well over 100kph from my expert opinion
) lane splitting up the inside of stationary cars in the rain. If *anything* popped up in his path, a car door, a pushbike, a pedestrian, a fucking possum, he was fucked. There was nowhere to swerve and no chance of stopping.
That's your choice, and while I'm arguing the specific case of harleys here, in a broader sense I'm arguing for the right of people to apply some common sense and buy a bike that ticks all the boxes they're looking for.
I respect the right for people to make their own choices, we only get one life and we should live it how we choose, even if it ends up being a short one. I've taken much greater risks on my sportsbike than no doubt 99% of Harley riders ever will (don't anymore though), so I'm not about to abuse an individual who chooses to ride a risky bike, but I have a fundamental issue with a manufacturer sacrificing performance/safety for style.
My take is that if you're going to ride a bike, make it a safe one, they're dangerous enough as it is.
Cool, something we actually agree on. I fucking love bacon too.
LOL :lol:
G breaking his back is a tragedy, but considering that he was riding a pocketbike on a closed circuit, there's not a great deal more he could have done. As far as I'm concerned all you're illustrating is that shitty things can happen to you regardless of where you are.
True. The point I was making here was in reference to arrowmaxes on the go-kart track the other week. When I was pushing the inevitability of the crash to you before you went out there, what I was really trying to get across is not that you might damage your rat bike, that you might damage yourself (while attempting to not come across as a fuddy duddy preacher). I wouldn't go out if I thought I was probably going to crash, because as G regretably proved, you don't have to be going very fast to fuck yourself up.
Sure, take every precaution you can to make your fun safe, but I'd much rather die in a fireball at 20 than wrap myself in bubble wrap and not do anything my whole life so I can look back at 80 and think "fuck yeah, i lived for ages.. and did fuck all".
There's a difference between living, and being alive for a long time.
Honestly, I don't think there's a pair of deaf ears in this place for that to fall on, we all ride bikes, we all understand risk:reward. How far you push that though is a personal decision, it's not a choice between bubble wrap and fireballs.
Would I have gotten away with how much trailbraking I gave a crack on the arrowstax the other week on better tyres? probably. Doesn't change anything though, I made a bad call and paid for it. As far as I'm concerned that's all there is to it.
We all make bad calls from time to time, but as I'm of the opinion that my next crash could easily be my last, I do what I can to avoid it. You're getting into racing and with racing comes crashes, I'm not trying to talk you out of anything, it's clearly on the positive side of your risk:reward calculation and it's 100% your choice, but you're a daredevil (as all racers are) and I think you need to put yourself in non-daredevil shoes when risk:reward scenarios come up. The vast majority of people would not be prepared to take the risks that you're comfortable with.
Because you're a mate, I'd try to talk you out of anything where I thought the risks were way too bad to be worth the rewards, but we're not at that level yet
Justin.[hr]
mitch179 said:
Crazy question here but have any of you guys ridden a cruiser?
I have, but only a 250 so the power was fucked. The seating position was enjoyable, so was the novelty of it, and so was being able to scrape pegs with 4 degrees of lean
I wasn't particularly concerned about safety at that time of my life though.
Having a wife tends to change things. It would be absolutely fucking irresponsible for me to take the risks that I used to. I'd be horrified if she herself did.
Justin.